Sep 23

Looking for sources on 2/47th Regiment of Foot

I recently discovered that my Great (x3) Grandfather, Samuel Hayes, served in the 47th Regiment of Foot from 5 December 1808 thru December 1832. Medal rolls indicate he served in 2/47th during the Peninsula War, with entitlement to the MGSM with Vittoria and San Sebastian clasps. The lack of the Barrosa clasp suggests he was in one of the battalion/centre companies.

I'm heading to Kew on 2 Oct to dig through the 2/47th muster rolls. I also have a number of books on order including Harley's "Veteran", "The Spanish Ulcer: a History of the Peninsular War", "A Commanding Presence: Wellington in the Peninsula 1808-1814", "Wellington and the Siege of San Sebastian 1813", "Vittoria 1813", Wylly's "Loyal North Lancashire Regiment", and others that cover the First Anglo-Burmese War.

I'm interested in finding other primary sources that might shed more light on the locations and travels Samuel undertook while in service. For example, are there any records of the vessels that transported the 2/47th to Gibraltar, Cadiz etc.?

Any pointers to sources (or additional books that would be of use) would be very much appreciated as I dig into this previously-unknown aspect of my family history.

Rob Griffith

Sep 24

Hi Mark,

I wrote a blog post on researching soldiers from the Napoleonic period which may help point you towards other records:

daringdutycunningplans.wordpress.com

Researching Soldiers of the Napoleonic Wars at The National Archives

During my research for Riflemen, and my current project on the battles of Arroyomolinos and Almaraz, I have become pretty familiar with the War Office records for the period at The National Archive…

The names of vessels are sometime recorded on the regimental returns, if they happened to be at sea on the right date. You can sometimes find embarkation reports if you know the rough date of sailing but I've found the records to be a bit patchy.

mark_rae

Sep 25

Many thanks Rob. I think I have most of those records but I'll dig around and see if I've missed anything critical.

I have some details of the 2/47th's movements (e.g. they were in Jersey in 1809 and moved to Gibraltar in October of that year. It then went to Cadiz some time in 1810 (some sources say May, others say October). One of my questions is where and when would Samuel have been trained as a soldier. He enlisted on 5 Dec 1808, at which time the 1st Battalion was in India while the 2nd Battalion was on Jersey. I can find no reference to a Regiment Depot which, presumably, would have trained new recruits.

Although I've done a fair amount of research on military matters through the ages but I'm new to Napoleonic era research so any pointers are greatly appreciated.

Rob Griffith

Sep 25

The theory was that 2nd battalions remained at home (which Jersey counts as) and the 1st battalion was deployed abroad. The 2nd battalion would recruit and train the men, and when the 1st battalion needed replacements they would be sent off. Whilst at home the 2nd battalions would also perform general defence and policing duties.

However, with the severe shortage of manpower that system broke down and many 2nd battalions were also sent on activity duty. When that happened they would quite often leave behind a small cadre of officers and NCOs to handle recruitment and training.

mark_rae

Sep 25

Thanks Rob. That was my understanding from my limited reading on the subject. I just wasn't sure if Samuel would have been sent direct to Jersey to be trained or if he'd be trained on the UK mainland first. My guess is the latter, and that a small training cadre prepared new recruits to go to either of the battalions. Unfortunately, I can't locate any muster records for that training team...unless it was folded into the 2nd Battalion records which I hope to view on 2 Oct at Kew.

Rob Griffith

Sep 25

I'd say it was more likely that he was sent direct to Jersey. All they probably had on the mainland were recruiting teams, feeding the men across in batches.

mark_rae

Sep 25

Hmmm...interesting. That seems a rather expensive way to do it because any recruits destined for the 1st Bn would have to sail back to the mainland before they could embark for India (assuming the 2nd Bn retained responsibility for training recruits for the entire Regiment.

Rob Griffith

Sep 25

The system was that recruits would never go to the 1st battalion. They'd go to the 2nd, be trained, and then go the 1st battalion months or even years later. It would be more expensive to maintain a separate training depot on the mainland. The was an Army Depot on the Isle of Wight but as far as I know it was more of a clearing house for drafts going back and forth, supply depot etc. As far as I know it had no training role.

mark_rae

Sep 25

Thanks Rob. This is exactly the kind of help I need to ensure I'm making the correct assumptions about the Army during the Napoleonic era.

So it seems Samuel may have sailed for Jersey either at the end of 1808 or early in 1809 to join the 2nd Bn. Hopefully, the muster roll will confirm this when I access it next week (assuming I can get to London and that Kew remains open).

mark_rae

Oct 4

Ok...back from Kew. According to the 2/47th muster rolls, Samuel joined the Battalion on 20 Feb 1809 with a note that, prior to that date, he had been paid by the depot. The rolls also show a number of recruits receiving rations aboard ship from 20 Feb until 7 Mar 1809.

Based on this info, I presume Samuel was taken on the rolls of 2/47th as soon as he joined the ship that would take him to Jersey. It also appears that some form of depot was in use in the UK to train new recruits for a few months before they joined 2/47th.

The 2/47th moved from Jersey to Gibraltar in October 1809. Again, the muster rolls show 911 men aboard ship from 13 Oct thru 14 Nov, with a follow-on note of the same number of men receiving rations at Gibraltar from 14 Nov onwards.

So...next question...is there any way to determine which ships carried my relative to Jersey and then to Gibraltar in 1809?

I'm also on the hunt for the depot location in the UK. Other muster roll sheets mention recruits coming from Hilsea but there was also, apparently, a depot in Bury. I clearly need to do some more digging to discover where he was trained from 4/5 Dec 1808 thru 20 Feb 1809.

ian.chard

Oct 6

Hello Mark

Can I be a bit cheeky and ask if your recent research can shed any light on a soldier that I am trying to research?

If you took photos of the relevant pages of the muster roll, could you see if one Dennis Hellim is present please? He was a weaver from Manchester who served with the 47th, implicitly the second bn. A letter survives, written by his wife in 1814, asking the War Office for information about him, for she has heard nothing from him for six years! The response was that he couldn't then be found, and that the battalion had been in Portugal six years ago.

However, the information that I have, and that you here substantiate, is that the bn was not in Portugal in 1808. Could he therefore have been in Jersey?

If you can see a Dennis Hellim on the roll I would be very grateful if you could let me know.

Thanks in anticipation.

mark_rae

Oct 8

@ian.chard

Hi Ian,

Alas, the muster rolls that I photographed don't contain any name even remotely like Dennis Hellim. That said, I only have the records from Q1 of 1809 so it's possible he appears in the 1808 muster rolls. It's possible he deserted prior to 1809 or that some other fate befell him.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Kind regards, Mark

ian.chard

Oct 10

@mark_rae

Hello Mark

Very kind of you to take a look. I knew that it was a long shot, but worth a try I think.

Your resume of the battalion's movements for the period is useful background nonetheless, so thanks for that.

My search continues....!

Best wishes

Ian

jim clitheroe

Oct 12

Hi,

I have the WO12 Muster Rolls for 2/47th covering period in Cadiz/Barrosa/Tarifa and WO23 & WO25 Pension records. Unfortunately the WO25 Descriptives are missing from the N.A. I will check my sources for your respective family members.

Contemporary reading for 2/47th are

The Veteran or 40 Years Service; John Harley Paymaster 47th Foot – Gareth Glover (Ken Trotman Books)

Seven Years in the Peninsula; Memoirs of Private Adam Reed – Gareth Glover (Ken Trotman Books)

Jim

jim clitheroe

Oct 12

Ian,

There is no Dennis Hellim on the Musters, but there is a Dennis Hulme, he was from Unsworth, Lancashire and enlisted 5th April 1809. He sailed on the Ephira in February 1811 from Cadiz to Algeciras as part of Graham's force at Barrosa. Following which he also served at Tarifa as part of Skerret's defence. He was then involved in the defence of Puente Largo, Aranjuez 30th October 1812, here he was reported as missing/killed WO25/1822 and died 16th December 1812. Hulme had 12/- credit which was ordered 21st October 1815.

Musters are notorious for phonetic/mispelling of names so this could possibly be your relative; time scales are right 1809 to 1815 and there are only three Dennis's shown on the Musters.

If you feel it could be him pm and I will send images

Jim

mark_rae

Oct 12

Jim, thanks a lot for joining this conversation. It sounds like you have a lot of useful information. Unfortunately, I can't work out how to send you a pm...however, hopefully we can work out a way to communicate off-forum if necessary.

I'm particularly interested in your comment about Dennis Hulme serving at Tarifa. I went through the WO12 muster rolls at Kew last week and couldn't find any direct reference to which soldiers were at Tarifa. I'd appreciate any help you can provide in hopes I can determine whether my Great(x3) Grandfather, Samuel Hayes, was at Tarifa.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. It's wonderful to have experts helping newbies like me access and interpret these documents.

BTW, thanks also for the pointer to Adam Reed's memoir. Luckily, I managed to find a copy on Abebooks that was reasonably priced...so it's been ordered!

Kind regards, Mark