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    Kevin F. Kiley
    May 17, 2021

    'Captain Cannon'

    in General Discussions

    Regarding the insurrection/revolt on 13 Vendimaire AN IV (5 October 1795) and the numbers of insurgents involved the following might be helpful:


    Vincent Cronin in his biography of Napoleon, entitled Napoleon Bonaparte: An Intimate Biography (published in 1971), the numbers of insurgents/rebels is given as 30,000. The numbers fielded to support the government is given as 5,000 regular troops and 3,000 militiamen.-85.


    Andre Castelot in his biography Napoleon (published in 1967) gives the number of insurgents/rebels as 30,000 which were faced by 5,000 regulars, 1,500 gendarmes and police, and 1,500 men forming a ‘sacred’ battalion. To the insurgents the latter were said to be ‘terrorists.’-50.


    Andrew Roberts in his Napoleon the Great (published in 2014) states that the insurgents/rebels, termed ‘sectionnaires, numbered 30,000 faced by 4,500 loyal troops and 1,500 ‘patriots’, gendarmes and veterans from Les Invalides.-66.


    Roberts does list Cronin’s biography in his bibliography, but not Castelot’s. Cronin does not list Castelot’s. All three of these are superior, and much more accurate, than Schom’s (2001), McLynn’s (2003), Barnett’s (1978), and Dwyer’s (2009) biographies of Napoleon. Broers (2018), while an excellent biography, barely mentions Vendemaire.


    Cronin, Roberts, and Castelot all mention the same number of insurgents that attempted to overthrow the French government.


    The rising was brought on by a number of factors, not the least of which was the adoption of a new constitution of AN III and the replacement of the Convention by the new Directory. Royalists made up a large part of the insurgent Sectionnaires. Napoleon had little time for armed mobs, and he had seen at least one in bloody action at the storming of the Tuileries and the massacre of the Swiss Guard in 1792 defending an empty palace.

    ‘Take two hundred horses, go immediately to the Plaine des Sablons, and bring back the forty cannons and the artillery park. We must have them here. Use your sabers, if you have to, but bring them here! You answer to me for it if you don’t! Now get going.’-Napoleon to Murat.


    Regarding the artillery emplaced in the Rue Neuve-St-Roche, facing the Church, Thiebault stated afterwards:


    ‘Their fire enfiladed the street. When, in this way, the cannons had felled or blasted aside everything and everybody in view, a thousand men of the patriot battalion, followed by a battalion of infantry, emerged from the dead-end street and attached those sectionnaires who still remained in front of the church and were occupying the Rue St. Honore. The shock was violent, and there was hand-to-hand fighting. But our troops gained ground, and six pieces of ordnance were immediately placed in battery, three to the right and three to the left of the dead-end street. They completed the routing of the sectionnaires, who fled toward the Place Vendome and the Palais Royal…’



    ‘If you treat the mob with kindness, these creatures fancy themselves invulnerable; if you hang a few, they get tired of the game, and become as submissive and humble as they ought to be.’-Napoleon to Joseph.


    Regarding Vincent Cronin’s biography of Napoleon, I don’t agree with the various negative ‘assessments’ of the volume, particularly regarding sourcing and the Appendix of the evaluation of memoirs. If anyone reads the subject appendix, it is quite obvious that Cronin was very familiar with the memoirs evaluated which indicates not only did he read them, they were evaluated in a scholarly manner and the conclusions drawn, especially by those that were ghost-written, are valid. Anyone interested can evaluate Cronin’s work with Jean Tulard’s similar work on period memoirs.


    The conclusion that I have come to is that criticism of Cronin’s work is because of the fact that the biography is sympathetic to Napoleon and those who continually cast Napoleon’s character in a bad light cannot tolerate anything either complimentary or sympathetic to Napoleon. And that is, at the very least, ahistorical.


    The final question is, how many biographies of Napoleon have people read? There aren’t ‘thousands’ of them in existence and there are more available than those that have been mentioned in this essay. And some are reliable and some are not, and Cronin’s most certainly is. Is his work error free? Of course not. But it is a valid work and another arrow in the quiver of our knowledge of the Emperor and his times. And he should be judged by the norms and moral of his times, and not by those of the early twenty-first century.

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    david Tomlinson
    May 19, 2021

    With the greatest respect @Kevin F. Kiley I believe we can all read a dictionary without it being constantly repeated here. I therefore fail to see any cogent or relevant point being made, unless you would care to develop it further? I arbitrarily discounted 90% of titles as although being about Napoleon they probably didn’t contain enough biographical data to qualify. But that still leaves tens of thousands that probably do. For there to be fewer than 1,000 biographies, that would mean that greater than 99.7% of books about him, with his name on the cover, did not contain information about his life sufficient to be considered biographical. To achieve fewer than 1,000 books, that would mean only 4.8 books a year, across all the worlds languages, since his final exile in 1815 Frankly, I believe that is stretching the bounds of credulity to breaking point. Note that if you query the Library of Congress Index with “Napoleon Biography” it still comes back with in excess of 16,000 titles in English alone. So, I think it is perfectly reasonable to draw the conclusion that there are indeed thousands of books that either are, or represent themselves to be, biographies. Of course, whether we have read them or liked them, or what we think of their quality is immaterial. They exist and to some extent or another, they all either add to , or detract from, the legend.

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    john fortune
    May 19, 2021

    May we at least call them Campaignographies?

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    david Tomlinson
    May 20, 2021
    Replying to

    So @Kevin F. Kiley The Library of Congress is counter factual then? I’d be interested to hear of a profession librarian’s take on this @tomholmberg ? Is Kevin right, there are less than a thousand biographies of Napoleon written in all languages globally over the last 220 or so years?

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    david Tomlinson
    May 20, 2021
    Replying to

    So, how many ‘true’ biographies are there @Kevin F. Kiley? I’d very much like to understand how and to what extent we have become misguided? Please enlighten us?

    Like

    pauldemet
    May 20, 2021
    Replying to

    @Kevin F. Kiley Sorry, I must be missing something, but what is the point you are making? - I really don't care how many biographies (however defined) there are of Napoleon - surely the point under discussion is how to get to a better understanding of what went on in the 1790's-1800's -in my view, only achieved by getting back to primary sources and avoiding the endless repetition of old myths.

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    Kevin F. Kiley
    May 19, 2021

    Definition of biography

    1: a usually written history of a person's lifea new biography of Abraham Lincoln. 2: biographical writings as a whole the genre of biography. 3: an account of the life of something (such as an animal, a coin, or a building)the biography of the commonwealth.


    Accepting that a biography is about the life of a person, mentioning a person in a book is not a biography. Books on Napoleon's campaigns are not biographies of Napoleon.

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    david Tomlinson
    May 20, 2021
    Replying to

    Library of Congress Catalog hits: Napoleon Biography 16.149 Napoleon 6.625 Napoleon Bonaparte. 1,396 Napoleon Life of. 704 Depending on the wording of the title, we cannot assume that these works are all mutually exclusive. However,, all the evidence though points to there being well in excess of 1,000 works that could be considered biographies. These of course only cover those either written in or translated into English. To that we have to add those written in French, German, Spanish, Italian etc. I take @Zack White’s exhortation to keep debate open and respectful. So I don’t think that claiming fewer was ahistorical, counter-factual or mendacious. Merely a very understandable misspeaking, for which no concession is required @Kevin F. Kiley so a respectful and mutual moving on would suffice?

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    May 20, 2021
    Replying to

    @david Tomlinson


    I agree, all of us here know what a biography is and isn't - and there are plenty about Boney, in a lot of languages, among else my favourite that of Jacques Presser, do we need to read all to form an opinion about that git?

    Mission impossible.


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    Zack White
    May 20, 2021
    Replying to

    @Kevin F. Kiley Do stop patronising people by posting dictionary definitions of basic words. It's a trademark move from you, and contributes nothing of value to the discussion. We are all perfectly competent at comprehending the English language.

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    john fortune
    May 19, 2021

    So little time....

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    david Tomlinson
    May 19, 2021
    Replying to

    A quick search for “Napoleon Biography” gave 16,149 title hits in English alone!

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    david Tomlinson
    May 19, 2021

    @Kevin F. Kiley “how many biographies have people read? There aren’t ‘thousands’ of them” This article lists 300.000 books about Napoleon, as of 2015 UKEssays. November 2018. Books Written About Napoleon Bonaparte History Essay. [online]. Available from: https://www.ukessays.com/essays/history/books-written-about-napoleon-bonaparte-history-essay.php?vref=1 [Accessed 19 May 2021]. It could be argued what constitutes a biography, but even if we disallow 90% of them, that’s still 30,000. Cronin’s was 50 years ago, so at approx 150 a year globally that we might call biographical that’s a conservative estimation of least 7,500 works that followed his. Now, admittedly that would probably mean all derivatives in all languages, but it is sobering that we are debating small quotes from highly selected works about the most written about individual in history.

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    May 18, 2021

    Why cite Thiébault when Cronin states that it is an untrustworthy source, or is it trustworthy when it fits?


    Thiebault stated afterwards:


    ‘Their fire enfiladed the street. When, in this way, the cannons had felled or blasted aside everything and everybody in view, a thousand men of the patriot battalion, followed by a battalion of infantry, emerged from the dead-end street and attached those sectionnaires who still remained in front of the church and were occupying the Rue St. Honore. The shock was violent, and there was hand-to-hand fighting. But our troops gained ground, and six pieces of ordnance were immediately placed in battery, three to the right and three to the left of the dead-end street. They completed the routing of the sectionnaires, who fled toward the Place Vendome and the Palais Royal…’

    have to cross check what he says in his full French unabridged memoires.

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    john fortune
    May 18, 2021
    Replying to

    The translation is unexceptional. In the original Thiébault goes on to witness a similar rout at Place Carousel and then, in the company of Bonaparte, the failed attempt to cross the Pont Royal by advancing along the Quai Voltaire in column, which was swept in front and flank by artillery fire, as he describes in terms of mystified disdain: "C’était le complément des absurditês de la journée et la dernière scene de cette ridicule agression." 'Mémoires du général Bon Thiébault publiés sous les auspices de sa fille, Mlle Claire Thiébault, d'après le manuscrit original par Fernand Calmettes' (1893-1895 Tome 1. https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2015477/f546.item

    Thiébault continues, "Une heure et demie avait suffi a trois ou quatre mille hommes engagés pour faire successivement et sure trois points différents raison des efforts de trente mille hommes" - thereby reducing significantly the number of defenders and elevating the number of attackers to the figure circulated in certain secondary sources but which would seem to strain credibility in the face of more measured estimates. He mentions 400 killed and wounded on the government side, with 100 more wounded when clearing the Palais Royal the following morning. (pp 537-39)

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    May 19, 2021
    Replying to

    @john fortune


    Interesting, according to Zivy those places were mopped up at the day after without any big fuss.

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    john fortune
    May 19, 2021
    Replying to

    @Hans - Karl Weiß I may have misread the reference to the 100 wounded. Thiébault describes the brief, token resistance next morning when troops cleared the Palais-Royal and Les Filles-Saint-Thomas, marking the last exchange of fire at day break then goes on:

    "Le spectacle qu’offrait le chateau des Tuileries, le 14 à la pointe du jour, était extraordinaire; nous avions une centaine de blessés sur les quatre cents tués et blessés que la veille avaient couté." Perhaps he means 100 wounded still needing treatment in the make shift hospital in the lobby and ground floor of the Tuileries.

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    john fortune
    May 18, 2021

    Mathiez states that "The troops of the sections numbered from twenty-four to twenty-five thousand," (p.256) He does however introduce the detail that a tentative confrontation around the Tuileries, with neither side wishing to initiate fighting, was broken, as on Lexington Green, by an unidentified shot that precipitated an attack by the sectionaires and their supporters which was held at bay by the cannon mounted on all the approaches to the Tuileries. Mathiez' detailed account of the complex politics leading up to XIII Vendémiaire also makes clear that if the force gathered to challenge the machinations Convention did not comprise "Forty thousand national guards, well armed and trained," neither was it a Royalist mob.

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    david Tomlinson
    May 18, 2021
    Replying to

    Thanks @john fortune and @tomholmberg , I think we are finally getting beyond the myths! It appears neither the inspired single-handed saviour of Vendèmaire against 30-40,000 armed Sectionnaires is as much of a myth as the cynical, brutal and sustained use of artillery against a largely civilian mob. Neither it seems have much to support it, the evidence points towards to something much smaller, briefer and with considerably less Napoleonic involvement than some sympathetic biographies have suggested.

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    May 19, 2021
    Replying to

    @david Tomlinson


    I agree, better discussion see other thread.


    My conclusion


    1. One sees the pitfalls to rely on Anglophone literature alone, best information so far - H.Zivy (a secondary source which is however well discussing and citing primary sources - what a difference to the usual Ango Saxon and German blurb I read so far, Cronin included) - but in French and ignored, thanks John Fortune for the link.

    2. Buonaparte was one among several generals, he was neither in command nor second in command. Most likely he was responsible for placing the artillery, not even mentioned in after action reports and newspaper.

    3. The rioters - terrorist - or whatever you will call them, were armed people of the sections - they had no artillery - it wasn't a civilian mob, their military value most likely very in-homogeneous.

    4. Zivy doubts that the majority of those were royalists, only a few sections were.

    5. The number of attackers and defenders vary quite a lot - certainly no 40,000 nor 30,000 - for attackers 8000 - 25,000 (one has to read again Zivy on this) - defenders 5000 - 8000 (Zivy gives strength reports for the defenders and what units were involved)

    6. Général vendémiaire - a nickname constructed well after the incident and due to creating pro Boney propaganda - to make him appear to be the savior of the universe, pardon, Convention, pardon French Republic. So no uproar at all justified for Napoleon fan boys to see this as denigration.

    7. Nabulieone indeed doesn't see this as insult but as distinction, and why shouldn't he by becoming a national hero by post action propaganda

    8. A whiff of grapeshot - British creation - those journalist should have written whiff of canister instead, but even if this is suggested to be anti Boney propaganda - it isn't - wrongly enhancing the importance of Boney in the action.


    Also why call him captain cannon instead of general cannon?



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    john fortune
    May 18, 2021

    H. Zivy, Le Treize vendémiaire, an IV (Paris, 1898) https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k695520.image

    Like
    tomholmberg
    May 18, 2021
    Replying to

    Another Source:


    After Robespierre: The Thermidorian Reaction

    Albert Mathiez


    See chapter XII "Vendémiaire"


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