#WaterlooRemembered Day 9: Waterloo: The Forgotten Battle? I speak to Rob Pocock @Campaignsand & Marcus Cribb @mcribbHistory from @ApsleyHouse about museums, monuments and memory of the battle, looking at what we tend to forget about Waterloo. https://anchor.fm/the-napoleonicist/episodes/Waterloo-Remembered-Day-9---Waterloo-The-Forgotten-Battle-efbvrl
I was lucky in my re - enactment days, to be there several times before the hype - my last battle re - enactment was about 2004 ish, and then more in the Plancenoit area, first in about 1983 or 1984?
I camped at the real battle field once behind La Haye Sainte, or more memorial the camps directly in Le Caillou.
https://tabletopdeutschland.com/2019/08/26/ferme-du-caillou-napoleons-hauptquartier/
I was once lucky to march in full kit from Quatre Bras to le Caillou under the guidance of Bernard Coppens - and was quite surprised how close those two battle fields are. On the way at Genappe one can also see the house in which Duhesme died.
But forgotten places - maybe I overheard it
Planchnoit (as then written on some maps)
That will give you a very interesting perspective about the battle, without visiting this place you won't understand the battle at all.
La Papelotte
Seemingly unheard off, yet such an important place on Wellington's left flank, also very enlightening to visit.
Otherwise Belle Alliance is a not so attractive battle field as such, what a contrast to Loano, Montenotte, Rivoli - I am sure that those in Portugal and Spain must look spectacular was well.
One could tour easily Boney's first campaign in Italy, and apart from the battle fields enjoy nice scenery and excellent Italian wine and food of those regions.
As to who did plan this battle most - highly amusing, nobody, it was dictated by the need of Blücher's defeat at Ligny that Wellington had to fall back to keep in a position that would give the Prussians the chance to support his stand before Bruxelles.
So - it was a reaction of circumstances, both Wellington and Blücher agreed before the campaign to support each other, the Prussians - letter of the King to Gneisenau were very well admonished to co - operate with Wellington.
Hans-Karl,
Did you attend the 1990 Waterloo reenactment? My unit was there. We went as the Luneburg Leicht-Batallion and helped a West German unit (1. KGL Leicht-Batallion, I think) install the La Haye Sainte structure which we occupied during the reenactment.
Yes I took part in that one, was quite epic due to the cause the due to unification of Germany quite a few units of former GDR could take part, I was far away from the LHS construct on the French right flank.
We camped with the West German unit. Attached to them were some East Germans from a historical museum in Leipzig. I very much enjoyed sitting around the campfire talking to them about der Weitervereinigung. All of them agreed that Germany should be unified but the East Germans were apprehensive about the changes to their lives that reunification would bring.
The fall back position of Wellington to stand at Mont St Jean was known and arranged before the campaign even began. The Prussians retreated, knowing exactly where Wellington would go. As to the comment by Wellington regarding 'they have ruined my battlefield'. Another Victor Hugo myth
You are certainly a more expert than me on this battle, my sources say a different story, Pflugk - Hartung, so far as I gather Wellington knew the position from earlier days - but he did not know in what direction the Prussians would retreat, neither did the Prussians know what Wellington was doing at the 17th - neither did Wellington for a while, due to the course that Winterfeldt, the ADC sent from Blücher's headquarters got severely wounded and by that Wellington received the bad news of the loss at Ligny quite late.
As far as I know he rested at Quatre Bras quite a while and was initial under the impression to fight along with the Prussians, in case they had at least stood their ground at Ligny for a second day.
When Wellington got the news and that the Prussians retreated direction Wavre he decided to retreat to the Waterloo position - to enable a position that would allow the Prussians to support him.
In case there is a source saying that even before all this battles the Prussians did know that Wellington would would retreat to the Waterloo position please point me to the sources I can read about that.
You are right that Wellington initially planned to stand at Quatre Bras on 17 June, but when he realised that he must retreat he went to his pre-chosen battlefield. The Prussian retreat on Wavre was specifically to maintain contact with Wellington as they knew where he planned to stand. Having informed the Prussians that he was retiring, there was no confusion of where he would fight (if supported)- they knew the location of the battle field without a major description of its location being sent
Is there any source which confirms that the Prussians knew before the campaign any likely pre chosen battlefields of Wellington?
I agree that the position Wellington did chose the stand before Bruxelles because he knew the terrain, so pre chosen yes.
So your line of logic would be - the Prussians lost at Ligny, they knew Wellington would have to fall back to the Waterloo position by default, because it was known to them before the campaign - so Wavre was the only choice.
My line of logic is, the Prussian withdrew to Wavre to have the opportunity, in case Wellington is retreating sort of parallel to them to support each other.
Of course they did know - when Wellington told them where he would retreat how to find him, they could read maps and see the roads leading to Wellingtons position.
The same for Wellington, as soon as the knew that the Prussians retreated to Wavre - he would have to fall back to a position which was in supporting distance for the Prussians, so consequently the Waterloo area, which he knew. .
Well it was certainly well known amongst his staff that this was the area Wellington intended to use if the advance was not via Mons. On the 11th of May Colonel Sir Augustus Simon Frazer (commander of the RHA) wrote "We have two positions; one in front of Ath, from Leuze to Mons; the other near Hal. In the possible event of our being beaten form either, or both, Bonaparte could hardly advance, since the Prussians would menace and indeed turn his right flank" Letter 10 from Commanding Wellington's Horse Artillery, Edward Sabine, Leonaur Editions 2018 page 346
As the direction of Napoleon's advance was unknown, I think this is a pretty accurate description of the overall scheme of manoevre, a full 6 weeks before it was called upon. The mention of Hal must surely mean a position on one of the nearby ridges, which includes that of Mon St Jean. It should be recalled that a considerable number of Allied troops were station in and around Hal and that the British ones still received the Waterloo medal.
I agree about Wellington's intention and choosing the battle field, but I am surprised - I would say rather pleasantly that Blücher would have know this before the campaign, so there must have been much closer liaison than imagined before.
I will find the source tomorrow
Thanks, looking forward to it.
I am still curious to learn more about this, did you find the source?
On 13 April Gneisenau wrote to Wellington “...but you may, my Lord Duke, in the event of an attack, count on all of our available forces here, and we have decided to share the lot of the army under the orders of Your Excellency”, the original was in French of course “maid boys pouvez, my Lord Duc, en cas d’attaque, compter sur l’assistance de toutes nos forces disponsibles ici, et nous sommes décidés à partagerble sort de l’armée sous les ordres de Votre Excellence.” Supplementary Dispatches and Memoranda of Field Marshal Arthur, Duke of Wellington, KG page 70
I will have another look shortly, unfortunately very busy at present
Very interesting read... Here are some "old" photos I took when I first visited the battlefield in 1985...
La Haye Sainte...
The old Ferme Gemioncourt at Quatre Bras...
The church of Saint-Amand on the Ligny-battlefield seen from the south...
...and the inner coutyard of La Haye Sainte in 1985...
Wonderful pictures!
It's too bad they no longer allow tourists inside La Haye Sainte.
I wonder when I'll have the chance to visit Ligny and Quatre Bras. . .