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    Zack White
    Jan 04, 2021

    Napoleon's Greatest Marshal?

    in General Discussions

    I want to start a new feature where each week a pose a question that will hopefully spark some POLITE discussion across the forum.


    This week's question: who was Napoleon's greatest marshal?


    You pick the criteria that you want to use for judging it (that's part of what should make the discussion interesting).


    Happy posting!

    Z

    113 comments
    113 Comments

    Share Your ThoughtsSign up to leave a comment.

    Daniel Hoffman
    Apr 11, 2021

    Good evening, fellas! I'm new over here, and I've started to get really interested in the character of Davout in the Russian campaign. I've read some very interesting comments, I see many of you have a crazy level of knowledge. Respect! About his very biography, does anybody know the main and most "scientific" texts in historiography on the topic? I'm selecting a list of books to read and analyze over the summer: I've heard of Gallagher and Chandler, but what else?

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    Apr 11, 2021
    Replying to

    Daniel Reichel : Davout et l'Art de la Guerre


    and plenty of other useful books available in French as his correspondence.



    Like

    Z
    Zack White
    Apr 11, 2021
    Replying to

    Hi Daniel,

    Welcome to the forum. Its always great to have newcomers. I'll let others who are better placed answer your question, but can I just ask from an admin perspective: can you visit your profile and ammend your profile name so that it states your full name. Its a forum rule that we have for transparency. Just click the drop down box in the top right of the main menu bar (you'll have to scroll to the very top of the page), click 'my profile' and then you can ammend it accordingly.

    Many thanks in advance

    Zack

    (Forum Moderator)

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    Chris Turner
    Jan 16, 2021

    I know that dilemma all to well.

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    david Tomlinson
    Jan 17, 2021
    Replying to

    Likewise, @Chris Turner and @Hans - Karl Weiß . I’ve been using one of these cataloging apps. After half of the shelves I’m up to 600 military titles, with 240 Waterloo related ones alone. Perhaps worth a thread or even a category of it’s own?

    Like

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    Alfred Brans
    Jan 17, 2021
    Replying to

    Perhaps the Librarything website. I used it long time ago for my modern books. Although for my old books it would be more interresting.


    Home | LibraryThing


    In the website of Worldcat you can also list your own collection. But I don't know whether these are visible for other people. I made a couple of lists there, even a wanted list.


    WorldCat.org: ’s Werelds grootste bibliotheekcatalogus.


    Perhaps an idea, so you avoid listing all your books on this site. A link will do.

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    Chris Turner
    Jan 16, 2021

    Worth knowing but I'm old school like to have and hold a book.

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    Jan 16, 2021
    Replying to

    Would like as well, but my room is stuffed with books, so much that I shouldn't be surprised when the ceiling is coming down, so I reached the point to throw away a printed book in case I buy a new printed one.





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    Chris Turner
    Jan 16, 2021

    Thank you, appreciate it.

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    Chris Turner
    Jan 16, 2021

    Is there a biography on Desaix? Always been fascinated by him. Davout was no slouch, probably the best of all the Marshals.

    Like
    tomholmberg
    Jan 18, 2021
    Replying to

    @Chris Turner The full set of Phipps is worth the investment. I bought a hardcover copy of the set that was "remaindered."

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    Chris Turner
    Jan 18, 2021
    Replying to

    Volume IV arrived today, first one I've purchased. Has a good amount of information on Desaix.

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    Jan 18, 2021
    Replying to

    @tomholmberg


    The interesting story, it is a multi author compilation, in case I remember correctly, all volumes are written by a different author.


    I was very happy when I could buy it, but then, already with first volume, I wondered how a Royalist could write something about the Revolution.



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    Chris Turner
    Jan 16, 2021

    @kevin F. Kiley you for your very informative response. Would you say Desaix was as talented as Napoleon in the field?

    Like
    Kevin F. Kiley
    Jan 16, 2021
    Replying to

    Good question. As an infantry commander, I would have to say yes, if not better.


    And Desaix's protege, so to speak, was Davout...

    Like

    Kevin F. Kiley
    Jan 08, 2021

    The last orders that Bernadotte received before leaving Naumberg and Davout at 0300 14 October stated that III Corps 'was to advance to Apolda to strike the left rear of the Prussian army, which by then should be fixed by Napoleon's advance from the Landgrafenberg.' (A Military History and Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars by Esposito and Elting, text for Map 63).


    Berthier's postscript added to the orders was 'If...Bernadotte is with you, you can march together, but the Emperor hopes that he will be in the position assigned him at Dornberg.'


    The orders were sent to Davout, who gave Bernadotte a written copy.


    From Napoleon's Army by HCB Rogers, 137-138:


    At 3am on the 14th October Davout received orders from the Emperor, timed 10pm on 13th October and written from his bivouac on the heights north of Jena. Berthier wrote that the Emperor had identified a Prussian army deployed about two and a half miles away, and extending from the heights of Jena to his front as far as Weimar. He intended to attack in the morning. He directed Davout to march via Auerstadt to Apolda and fall on the rear of the enemy, but left him to choose his own route, provided that he took part in the battle. Berthier added, 'If Marshal Bernadotte is with you, you will be able to march together, but the Emperor hopes that he will be in the position indicated to him, that is, Dornberg.''


    'Davout immediately summoned his divisional and cavalry commanders and issued orders for the advance of III Corps. He then went off to see Bernadotte, whose I Corps had marched into Naumburg the previous evening. Davout gave Bernadotte a copy of the Emperor's orders and asked him what he proposed to do. Bernadotte , who had no wish to be associated with Davout, chose to assume that the Emperor wished him to go to Dornberg, and said that he would march to Camburg, which was on his way to the town.'


    Bernadotte was already supposed to be in Dornberg by the order. That not being the case, he should have marched with Davout and supported him against the main Prussian army. Davout's command suffered 8,000 casualties defeating the Prussians and it is no wonder that he referred to Bernadotte as 'Le miserable Ponte Corvo.'


    Bernadotte did indeed reach Apolda at 1600 on 14 October. He was not in the rear of any Prussians nor did he cut the Prussians off retreating from either Jena or Auerstadt. He took part in neither action and heard Davout's battle as he was moving south from Naumburg. Sahuc, commanding a dragoon division, proposed counter-marching to Davout's aid and support, but Bernadotte would not allow him to do so.


    What prisoners did Bernadotte take on 14 October, and what Prussian units did he intercept on the 14th? The answer is none, unless it can be shown somewhere that he did. On the 14th Bernadotte's I Corps stopped at Apolda with two divisions (Drouet and Rivaud) with one division (Dupont) and most of his artillery at Dornburg. The French pursuit of the Prussians did not begin until 15 October. Napoleon began to issue orders for the pursuit at 0500 on 15 October. By those orders, Bernadotte was sent to Neustadt, north of the River Ilm.


    From F Lorraine Petre's Napoleon's Conquest of Prussia 1806, 171-173:


    'The absence of Bernadotte from Jena as well as from Auerstadt is inexplicable, except on the ground of his own selfish and jealous character. Never had a commander a better chance than he had of turning the hard-won success of a fellow general into an easy and overwhelming victory; but then the laurels must have been shared with Davout, which was not what Bernadotte could bear, especially as the lion's share would have fallen to Davout. The Emperor's orders are not forthcoming in original, which must be admitted to be prima facie suspicious. They are, however, clearly given in Davout's history of the operations of the 3d Corps, and Davout is generally reliable and honest. The orders were addressed to him, and he says they ran: 'If Marshal Bernadotte is with you, you can march together; but the Emperor hopes that he will be in the position indicated to him at Dornburg.' These orders Davout says he communicated to Bernadotte in writing. Bernadotte himself admits receiving them at 4am on the 14th. (See his despatch of 21st October-Foucare, II, 200.) On the other hand, he ignores the order to march with Davout if he was still himself at Naumburg, and confines himself to an exposition of the difficulties of getting from Dornberg (where he arrived at 11am on the 14th) to Apolda. Looking from the Saale up the valley leading from Dornburg to the plateau, there seem few difficulties, certainly none such as Soult had in the Rauthaul. Besides, we know that Hohenlohe on the evening of the 13th went down to Dornburg with a brigade and up again, all in a few hours, apparently without any difficulty. What Bernadotte says might seem to point to the absence of any order to march with Davout. The Emperor answered him on the 23d October (Foucart, II, 243) as follows: 'However, according to a very precise order, you ought to have been at Dornburg, which is one of the principal passages of the Saale, on the same day as Marshal Lannes was at Jena, Marshal Augereau at Kahla, and Marshal Davout at Naumburg. In case you had not executed these orders, I had informed you during the night that, if you were still at Naumburg, you should march with Marshal Davout and support him. You were at Naumburg when this order arrived; it was communicated to you; but, nevertheless, you preferred to make a false march in order to turn back to Dornberg, and in consequence you did not find yourself in the battle, and Marshal Davout bore the principal efforts of the enemy's army.' To that letter Bernadotte could have replied, if the case were so, that the orders to support Davout if both were at Naumburg had not reached him. He did not do so, and the presumption must therefore be that he did receive them, as Davout says he did. The orders were certainly clear enough, and it seems impossible to find any excuse for Bernadotte's reading the latter part, merely expressing a hope that he was at Dornburg, as a direction to march at that late period by a circuitous road, instead of by the straight one to Apolda;'


    'It is on these dispatches, written within a few days of the event, and not for publication, that the affaire Bernadotte must be judged, and they seem conclusive against him.'


    Napoleon to Rapp 15 October 1806:


    'Bernadotte has behaved badly. He would have been enchanged to see Davout fail in that affair, which does him [Davout] the greatest honor, all the more so because Bernadotte had rendered his position difficult.'

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    david Tomlinson
    Jan 08, 2021

    You have every right to your opinion, but it is not borne out by the facts. He was a serving officer, who declared his support for an outlawed individual, his current ‘enemy’ he’d been sent to arrest. This was a full 4 days before his legally constituted sovereign was forced to flee for his safety, largely due to Ney’s actions. Furthermore, he did not merely surrender his forces as Marmont did, he actively defected. His troops were not made prisoner, but largely became belligerents in the enemy forces. If that is not treasonous then someone needs to re-write the dictionary. These facts formed part of the evidence brought before a duly constituted tribunal. Due to the large number of people who heard this address and it’s wide contemporaneous reporting it was not disputed. Everyone, including Ney, was aware of the penalty for treason, and it wasn’t stoppage of cocoa or being confined to barracks. To say otherwise is counter-factual. No amount of affection the historian may have for a historical character should cloud their duty to the material facts, if they still demand the protection of the title. Otherwise all we have is an opinion, more properly stated with a caveat such as “I believe” or “it is widely said that” etc.

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    Jan 08, 2021

    I would feel like a troll and being a scourge of repetition to blurb Bernadotte or Marmont or Dupont in this context who is the best Marshal of Nabulieone - in the past this as done zum Abkotzen - I won't wast my time again.

    Like

    Kevin F. Kiley
    Jan 08, 2021

    The footnotes for Jack Gill's assessment of Bernadotte, which I have found to be accurate and insightful, are:


    -regarding Bernadotte's 'rancor': Bernadotte and Napoleon 1763-1810 by Sir Dunbar Plunket Barton.


    -making 'enemies of senior army leaders': Plunkett, Bernadotte and Napoleon.


    -'violent verbal outbursts': the outbursts were called 'gasconades.'


    -'promoting his own interests': Barton, Bernadotte and Napoleon; John Elting, Swords Around a Throne; TA Heathcote's chapter on Bernadotte in Chandler's Napoleon's Marshals.