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    Kevin F. Kiley
    May 10, 2021

    European Hereditary Monarchs

    in General Discussions

    I don't believe this overall question has been addressed on the forums, but how did the European hereditary monarchs get to be kings, princes, dukes, grand dukes, etc?


    Napoleon is usually criticized for becoming Emperor of the French from somewhat humble beginnings as a Corsican minor noble and beginning to rule as a monarch.


    He was a self-made man who began as a soldier, a sword, and became the head of state of France in 1799 beginning as First Consul and then becoming Emperor of the French as well as King of Italy and Protector of the Confederation of the Rhine.


    How did the Hohenzollerns, Hapsburgs, and Romanofs begin and then become kings, king/emperors, and Tsars?


    Did they not have to begin somewhere?

    104 comments
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    john fortune
    May 19, 2021

    It would be interesting to know what Andrew Roberts' intended purpose might have been in referring to the Gordon Riots of 1780 when discussing 'XIII Vendémiaire' of 1795 (in old money). As a quick scan of the linked material makes clear there was no comparison between the peaceful meeting at St Peter's Field in 1819, set upon by the troops supposedly acting in support of the civil power, and the rampaging mobs of 1780 shot down by troops when martial law was introduced after a five-day rampage of looting and burning the length and breadth of the capital. The two events are linked only by each being unprecedented in its own way and by the incompetence of the authorities in each case. They were also both political events however and it is true that the events of June 1780 instilled in the British establishment a deepening fear of 'mob' violence, only accentuated by the events of 1789 in France. Violent protest was seen as merely a demonstration of the base instincts of the common people which required control with force, rather than as a reaction against inequality and incompetent, repressive government, demanding reform. That self-serving complacency led inevitably to the criminal mismanagement of the meeting in Manchester, although these were both extreme events. There were for instance outbreaks of rioting between 1793-95 in London and the provinces which did not have such bloody results.

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    david Tomlinson
    May 19, 2021

    @Kevin F. Kiley Not at all a one off, pert of a tradition all the way back to Wat Tyler and The Peasant’s Revolt and some could argue continued through to the Poll Tax riots to the statue removers of today. The French didn’t stop either of course, there were many more revolts and coups to come. Britain had it’s regicide and Napoleon 150 years earlier, you just need to replace Emperor of the French with Lord Protector of the Commonwealth. Probably a better analogy for Vendèmaire would be the storming of the Capitol. Wonder how engaging with artillery would have gone down there? I speculate how much value there is in making these comparisons though? There might be merit in revisiting aspects of civil disobedience through the ages. However, as we seem to have established that despite the subsequent legend Napoleon had a very minor role I wonder how interested people would be?

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    May 19, 2021
    Replying to

    @david Tomlinson

    Two completley different stories, why did Roberts bring it up?

    I agree a useless conparison.

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    Kevin F. Kiley
    May 19, 2021

    In Napoleon the Great by Andrew Roberts he has a footnote on page 66 where he compares the casualties of the insurgents to the rioters of the Gordon Riots in London in 1780. The casualties for the anti-Catholic rioters was 285 killed, 100 wounded, and 20 executed. Troops had to be called in to stop the riots.


    I guess the 'Peterloo Massacre' wasnt' a one-off.' 🤦‍♂️


    Gordon Riots 1780 | Encyclopedia.com


    Gordon Riots 1780 (intriguing-history.com)


    The Gordon Riots of 1780: London in Flames, a Nation in Ruins (gresham.ac.uk)

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    May 19, 2021

    My conclusion

    1. One sees the pitfalls to rely on Anglophone literature alone, best information so far - H.Zivy (a secondary source which is however well discussing and citing primary sources - what a difference to the usual Ango Saxon and German blurb I read so far, Cronin included) - but in French and ignored, thanks John Fortune for the link.

    2. Buonaparte was one among several generals, he was neither in command nor second in command. Most likely he was responsible for placing the artillery, not even mentioned in after action reports and newspaper.

    3. The rioters - terrorist - or whatever you will call them, were armed people of the sections - they had no artillery - it wasn't a civilian mob, their military value most likely not very homogeneous.

    4. Zivy doubts that the majority of those were royalists, only a few sections were.

    5. The number of attackers and defenders vary quite a lot - certainly no 40,000 nor 30,000 - for attackers 8000 - 25,000 (one has to read again Zivy on this) - defenders 5000 - 8000 (Zivy gives strength reports for the defenders and what units were involved)

    6. Général vendémiaire - a nickname constructed well after the incident and due to creating pro Boney propaganda - to make him appear to be the savior of the universe, pardon, Convention, pardon French Republic. So no uproar at all justified for Napoleon fan boys to see this as denigration.

    7. Nabulieone indeed doesn't see this as insult but as distinction, and why shouldn't he by becoming a national hero by post action propaganda

    8. A whiff of grapeshot - British creation - those journalist should have written whiff of canister instead, but even if this is suggested to be anti Boney propaganda - it isn't - wrongly enhancing the importance of Boney in the action.

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    david Tomlinson
    May 19, 2021
    Replying to

    Thank you @Hans - Karl Weiß , as ever insightful. I can but broadly agree on the evidence unearthed by yourself, @john fortune , @tomholmberg and others. Really highlights the wisdom of not accepting secondary sources that uncritically repeat the post constructed myth at face value. Perhaps the other biographers of Napoleon that do not mention it are of slightly higher quality, they had the good sense to omit or downplay the incident!

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    john fortune
    May 18, 2021

    H. Zivy, Le Treize vendémiaire, an IV (Paris, 1898)

    pp. 66-101 https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k695520.image

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    john fortune
    May 18, 2021

    A 1972 reprint of George Rude's The Crowd in the Revolution' (1959) can be found online with relevant pages from p 171. It is fully sourcesd with footnotes. here https://archive.org/details/crowdinfrenchrev0000rude/page/171/mode/1up?q=honore


    He states that although 25,000 sectionnaires were waiting under arms only 7-8000 took part in the attack on the Tuileries. against upwards of 5,000 defenders. Of particular interest, he states that "Contrary to legend Bonaparte was only one of half a dozen generals appointed to serve under Barras in the affair." Only after the fighting was over did Barras request that Bonaparte should be officially recognised as his second in command. Apparently Bonaparte, not unreasonably, was in charge of the artillery. Total casualties on each side were about equal at about 2-300 He cites H. Zivy, Le Treize vendémiaire, an IV (Paris, 1898) as his principal source for this section

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    May 18, 2021
    Replying to

    Indeed - Zivy lists several other generals, among them also Dupont.

    Also he confirms that it is wrong that the constitution named Nabulione a général en chef, no even commandant en seconde, pure propaganda again, but seemingly he was responsible for placing the artillery.


    Also the incident at Saint Roche it is doubted if Nabulione was present and indeed Zivy speaks about 8000 insurgents from the sections of the centre.





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    john fortune
    May 18, 2021

    The source for the Sections is 'Les sections de Paris pendant la Révolution française, (21 mai 1790-19 vendémiaire an IV) : organisation, fonctionnement' Ernest Mellié (1898) https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k62155556 Linked here is a map showing the 48 sections. http://www.emersonkent.com/images/paris_1789_1799.jpg


    In answer to my own question, for a concise and, on the face of it, reasonably dispassionate account of the events leading up to and leading into the confrontation of XIII Vendémiaire see A dolphe Thiers' 'History of the French Revolution', Vol 3-4 (1842-43) The insurgents who gathered to challenge the Convention were evidently a very motley group, hardly the "Forty thousand national guards, well armed and trained" described by Napoleon in conversation on St Helena (quoted in a footnote p 326). Thiers goes as far as to say "if all the sections were actuated by the same zeal, they could assemble forty thousand men, well armed, and well organized" (p322) but he later states "Of the forty thousand men of the national guard, twenty or twenty-seven thousand at most were present under arms." (p324). He allows Napoleon about 8000 men to defend the convention, backed by 40 cannon (to the insurgents' zero). There follows a clear brief account of the repulse of attacks on Rue St Honoré and from the south across the bridges over the Seine. The conflict lasts from 4.30 to 6pm followed by mopping up and sending patrols to secure the approaches to the government quarter.

    https://archive.org/details/v3a4historyoffren03thieuoft/page/n329/mode/2up?q=vend%C3%A9miaire

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    john fortune
    May 18, 2021

    No, an error I would suggest, although '48' certainly does sound better. The number in sections armées varied according to number of citoyens actifs (18-40) listed (between c 1,200-2,500 depending). By 1793 numbers were considerably lower than prescribed, with reported shortage of arms (muskets or pikes). After the failed rising of I Prairial in May 1795, companies from 17 sections had been sent to the field army and sections had been ordered to hand in any artillery pieces. (These may have been the guns recovered from Sablons by Murat).

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    john fortune
    May 18, 2021

    It seems that the good general, or his struggling translator, was confused. Forty-eight was the total number of 'sections' into which the population of Paris was divided at the time of 13 Vendémiaire.

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    david Tomlinson
    May 18, 2021
    Replying to

    Aha! Thank you @john fortune So that would presume that the entire population of Paris across the board had risen up? Probably not very likely.

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    david Tomlinson
    May 17, 2021

    @tomholmberg 1% and 1.67% casualties? With the higher percentage of losses for the one with all the artillery? This makes the 30,000 figure very suspect, it would be more like 18,000 to even make the casualties proportionally equal. So, some simple questions might illuminate: 1. How big is a section of the National Guard? 2. How many muskets were issued to each section? 3. How many areas of Paris had royalist sympathies and therefore sections of National Guard participating? A more empirical approach would be if we knew the proportion of the hundred who gunshot wounds. Another would be if we knew the gender and age of the three hundred, In the absence of answers I’m still liable to be sceptical about the figure and the composition.

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    May 18, 2021
    Replying to

    @tomholmberg


    I read what was available in my library, but I did not encounter the story that Brune did fire blanks over the heads of the mob.

    On the contrary it seemed to be a hard fight between those two opposing forces, numbers in big variation, the units of the "Convent" from 6000 to 8000 (5000 being regular infantry) while those armed from the diverse sections, 44 out of 48 - are usually estimated to about 30,000 (but who could say).

    When the rebels routed the gunners took it lenient and continued to fire only some few shots after them and then ceased firing.

    Some source states that there was the "danger" even of fraternization between the opposing forces - but then a shot ran and then from then on the fighting started.

    The "roylist" sections were commanded by general Danican, who wanted to besiege or isolate the troops of the convention.


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    tomholmberg
    May 18, 2021
    Replying to

    @Hans - Karl Weiß Danican encouraged the Royalists to fraternize with the troops. Menou, who commanded before Barras, was sympathetic to the Royalists, hence he was replaced. Afterwards very few of those involved were prosecuted and only a two or three executed, unlike Prairial.

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    john fortune
    May 18, 2021
    Replying to

    Have these posts got a little out of sequence? Anyway, it seems that in the final stages of the 90-minute 'engagement,' when those attacking the Convention had retired in the face of the defenders' artillery, the gunners switched to firing charges of powder without shot to send them on their way. At whose orders, I have not seen it stated, nor for what reason, but it may be that, with the immediate threat averted, there was perhaps an intention to keep casualties low so as to keep alive the possibility of rapprochement with the less entrenched opponents of the new Constitution.

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    david Tomlinson
    May 17, 2021

    So @tomholmberg the nub of that argument appears to be: “organized militias three times the size of the regular army, ready for war.” ? Cronin puts that at 30,000 ? Franceschi’s article is light on sources other than Thiébault (but with no specific footnote)? Franceschi gives a casualty figure of 300, but doesn’t say whether that was government forces or as a whole. So essentially a battle between Royalist sympathising sections of the National Guard and a small regular force with 40 pieces of canon? Have I got this right?

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    tomholmberg
    May 17, 2021
    Replying to

    I believe 300 is deaths on the Royalist side and 100 casualties on the government side. 30,000 Royalists vs. 6,000 government troops is also the generally given figure (a 6 to 1 ratio is also mentioned).

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    john fortune
    May 16, 2021

    Having had a nose round the old internet and finding myself none the wiser, is there a map any where that explains the geography of the fighting on 13 Vendémiaire, showing the defence lines and corresponding avenues of attack? In trying to work out how the Èglise St Roch on Rue St Honoré became a killing ground. I found this from a historical marker in front of the church "Le 5 octobre 1795(13 Vendémiaire an IV), le général Bonaparte installe une pièce d'artillerie dan le cul-de-sac Dauphin (prolongement de la sud) et mitraille les insurgés royalistes massés sur le marches de l'église." That seems dashed obliging of the insurgés royalistes, to gather on the church steps in oblique line of fire from a field piece placed on the corner of Rue St Roch (which in 1795 was known as Rue du Dauphin) leading from the Salle de Manège, the former palace riding school converted to house the Convention. There must be more to it. Certainly not room for 30,000 unless they had formed an orderly queue.

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    Kevin F. Kiley
    May 17, 2021
    Replying to

    The fighting took place at more locations than the above mentioned church and adjoining area.

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    david Tomlinson
    May 16, 2021

    Thank you @Hans - Karl Weiß , I think that Susan was being a little more generous than I would have been! Cronin’s ‘rosy views’ may have been acceptable in 1971 when most readers had limited access to primary sources and there was a greater willingness to take things on trust. Half a century later, with the rise of the Internet, the fall of the Iron Curtain and projects like Googlebooks and Gallica simply unsustainable. What it shares with ‘Swords’ is a cavalier and selective approach to footnotes and references. Whether that is a generational style thing, or common around the Napoleonic legend I don’t feel qualified to say. Pertinent to @Kevin F. Kiley’s original post though, I don’t see many such ‘rosy viewed’ works around George III or the Prince Regent in English. If anything they tend to focus on their fairly obvious character flaws. Are there many hagiographic studies in German of Frederick William III or Francis II? Or do we know of a body of work in Russian protecting the reputation of Alexander? Could the reason @Kevin F. Kiley is encountering a dearth of Don Quixotes for the European monarchs be explained by the absence of windmills to tilt at?