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    Rory Muir
    Feb 06, 2021

    Regimental rank in French Army

    in General Discussions

    In the British army the most senior officers of any particular rank up to lieutenant-colonel (lieutenants, captains, major etc) served in the 1st battalion of an infantry regiment, while the junior officers served in the second battalion (where there were two battalions as was commonly the case). This meant that there was a good deal of movement of officers between battalions, which could cause problems when the first battalion was on a distant station.


    In the French army infantry regiments had a greater number of battalions, but all except a weak depot battalion generally - but not always - served together.


    Did French officers shift between these battalions as they gained seniority, or did they remain in the one battalion at least until they were promoted up a rank?


    Also, what was the basis of promotion for regimental officers in the French army? Merit? Seniority? Did most officers spend their whole career in the one regiment?

    22 comments
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    Kevin F. Kiley
    Feb 13, 2021

    Three more references that might be of some help: Coignet's memoirs as well as those of Barres and Elzear Blaze. Parquin's memoirs also chronicle his promotions in the 20th Chasseurs a Cheval and eventual transfer into the Imperial Guard.


    The Note-Books of Captain Coignet: the Recollections of a Soldier of the Grenadiers of the Imperial Guard During the Campaigns of the Napoleonic Era--Complete & Unabridged: Coignet, Jean-Roch: 9781782827580: Amazon.com: Books


    For Elzear Blaze:

    Amazon.com : 9781846772252


    Napoleon's Victories; From the Personal Memoirs of Capt. C. Parquin, of the ... - Denis Charles Parquin - Google Books


    Memoirs of a French Napoleonic Officer: Jean-Baptiste Barres, Chasseur of the Imperial Guard (Napoleonic Library): Barres, Jean-Baptiste: 9781473882935: Amazon.com: Books

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    tomholmberg
    Feb 07, 2021

    Article of possible interest: "The 'Old Grumblers' of Napoleon's Army: Rates of Promotion Before and After 1815." Terry W. Strieter. Historian, vol. 53, no. 1, Autumn 1990. P. 63-75.

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    R
    Rory Muir
    Feb 08, 2021
    Replying to

    Oh, that does look interesting - thank you.

    Like

    tomholmberg
    Feb 13, 2021
    Replying to

    @Rory Muir Email me your email address, the one I have bounces back.

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    Kevin F. Kiley
    Feb 07, 2021

    Another useful reference on the subject is Jean-Paul Bertaud's chapter, 'Napoleon's Officers' contained in the book Warfare in Europe edited by Rick Schneid, pages 121-141.

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    david Tomlinson
    Feb 08, 2021
    Replying to

    @Rory Muir Something of that distinction survived until relatively recently, with RA and graduate officers attending Mons Officer Cadet School rather than RMAS until sometime into the 1970’s I believe. Wellington’s animosity towards the artillery was well known, and at this time being a ‘competent professional’ was not exactly a compliment in some circles. Remember the first ‘Gentlemen’ vs ‘Players’ cricket match was 1806 (although admittedly it didn’t become an annual fixture until later, 1819 I believe). It can be detected in some of the memoirs, with infantry and cavalry officers describing their ‘calling to the profession of arms’ whilst gunners and engineers ‘practiced their trade’. As an ex-Royal Signals officer, I’m not entirely sure that snobbery has not disappeared completely in some circles!😉 Unsurprisingly, with Napoleon being a gunner, the French don’t seem to have had the same hang ups.

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    Feb 08, 2021
    Replying to

    @david Tomlinson


    I invested in it, some very worthwhile articles - even about the Prussian Army.



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    david Tomlinson
    Feb 08, 2021
    Replying to

    Thank you @Hans - Karl Weiß . By the way, I’m very much enjoying Les Mensonges by Coppens you recommended. Hampered only by my schoolboy French!

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    david Tomlinson
    Feb 07, 2021

    @Kevin F. Kiley wrote “Very seldom would a cuirassier officer be promoted into a chasseur a cheval regiment.” So I took a sample from “A Dictionary of The Cuirassiers Officers of The First Empire” by Olivier Lapray, just to see how much traffic there was between them. It’s in alphabetical order, so if we take the 60 or so officers starting with ‘A’ looking for a Chasseurs a Cheval connection, I found two that went on promotion from the Cuirassiers: Avrange d’Hauge-Ranville Francois Charles Jean Pierre. 2nd Lt Chasseurs a Cheval de la Garde 12May 1801 then spells as ADC and in various Dragoon regiments the Colonel 6th Cuirassiers 25 June 1807 then Major Chasseurs a Cheval de la Garde 6 August 1811 Avrange Dukermont in the 6th Cuirassiers 11 July 1807 in the suite of the 5th Chasseurs a Cheval 2nd March 1809 Sqn Comd 2nd Chasseurs a Cheval 30th April 1809 Col 9th Chasseurs a Cheval 3rd March 1813 Looking at those that came the other way: Aardenburg Pierre van 13th Chasseurs a Cheval August 1794. 14th Cuirassiers 18th August 1810 via 2nd Batavian Cavalry and Dutch Cuirassiers. Abbecle Pierre Van den 10th Chasseurs a Cheval 5th Cuirassiers 28 February 1813 Armengaud Jean Antoine in 1st Chasseurs a Cheval 1 January 1791 then 22nd Chasseurs a Cheval. 7th Cuirassiers 12 Dec 1806 It’s always dangerous to extrapolate from such a small sample, but movement of of around 8% in either direction doesn’t seem all that rare. It’s worth noting that there is other “traffic” as well, particularly with dragoon’s. However, two (50%) of our sample also include other units (Hussars, Gendarmes, Dragoon’s etc). So what we might be detecting is a small, but significant and highly mobile cohort of officers? This is not my main area of interest, but there is a piece of analytical work here. Others might want to take forward?

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    Kevin F. Kiley
    Feb 06, 2021

    Great stuff-well done.

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    Garry Wills
    Feb 06, 2021

    I hope this helps as a case study. For my book Wellington at Bay, I did some work on Maucune's Division of the Army of Portugal at Villamuriel in October 1812. Looking at the regiment and battalion commanders of the 4 regiments you get a very mixed picture; several examples of promotion within the regiment but lots of movement between regiments;


    15e Ligne

    Major Jacques-Louis Dornier served in the 2e Grenadiers de la Garde Consulaire, 43e Ligne, 15e Légère, 69e Ligne and 15e Ligne before becoming colonel of the 26e Légère.

    1er Batn: Capitaine Jean Lafitte, Sgt Major in the 15e Ligne promoted through ranks to capitaine in the regiment.

    2e Batn: Chef de Bn Alexandre François Frémin, Soldat 28e Ligne, SgtMajor 11e Ligne & then 103e Ligne , sous Lt, Lt and Capitaine in 103e Ligne, promoted to Chef de Bataillon in 1809 and joined the 15e Ligne in 1810. In 1813 promoted to major en seconde in the 153e Ligne.

    66e Ligne

    Colonel Jean Pierre Béchaud, joined as private 1787, served as chef de bataillon 4e Cote d’Or, 159e & 10e Demi Brigades, and then the 86e and 66e Ligne, then promoted to major and colonel in 66e Ligne.

    4e Batn Chef de Bn Michel Izambard, joined as private 1792, 3e Charante Inferieur, Joined 66e Ligne as Lieutenant, promoted to Capitaine and then Chef de Bataillon in 66e. In 1813 he was became major en seconde in the 21e Ligne.

    6e Batn Captain Leopold Daniel Charlemont; apptd lieutenant 1792 in 2/53e Regiment, promoted to captain in 1794, joined the 66e Ligne in 1810.

    82e Ligne

    Colonel Joseph Jacob van Geen, volunteered into Chasseurs Belges in which he was promoted to sous lt. and lt., joined 7e Demibrigade as lieutenant before promotion to capitaine. Joined 2e Légère as capitaine and then Lt. Col. in Dutch Royal Guard in 1807. Colonel in the 8e Ligne in 1809 and then the 126e Ligne, joined the 82e Ligne in 1811.

    4e Batn Chef de Bn Michel Lefizelier, joined as lieutenant 16e Vol. Nationaux, 1792, chef de bataillon in 1809, then in the 57e Ligne, later transferred to the 82e Ligne. In 1813 became Major in 122e Ligne.

    5e Batn Chef de Bn Jean Baptiste Dupré, born 14/10/1767, cannonier 1er Artillerie à Pied 1783, Caporal 1793, Marechal des Logis, Artillerie à Cheval 1792, Lieutenant 1793, Capitaine 1794; Capitaine Paris Guard 1803, Chef de Bataillon 82e Ligne April 1812.

    86th Line

    Colonel Claude Joseph Pélecier, joined as soldat 11e Haute Savoie Vol. 1792, promoted serjent, serjent major and sous-lieutenant 1792, lieutenant and adjutant major capitaine 56e Ligne, Chef de Bataillon 3e Légère 1806, Major 113e Ligne 1808 and then 103e Ligne 1809, Colonel 86e Ligne 1811.

    1er Batn Chef de Bn Jean Luzinier, joined as private 1792, lieutenant 89e Demibrigade 1796, Capitaine 1800, joined 86e Ligne 1805, chef de bataillon 1809.

    2e Batn Chef de Bn François Adam Eys, joined as sous lieutenant 77e Régiment d’Infanterie 1788, lieutenant 1793, capitaine 1795, became 86e Demibrigade and then 86e Ligne, Chef de Bataillon 86e Ligne 1811.

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    Hans - Karl Weiß
    Feb 07, 2021
    Replying to

    That sums it up very nicely, nothing better than such a case study.

    Also regimental officers could be assigned for a while on staff duty and then be back for a battalion or regiment, as for example can be read in the memoires of Girod de l'Ain, for Fezensac.

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    Rory Muir
    Feb 08, 2021
    Replying to

    Really good stuff - thanks Gary

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    tomholmberg
    Feb 06, 2021

    Terry Crowdy's book "Napoleon's Infantry Handbook" has a chapter on Promotion (Chapter 15), though I don't think he answers all your questions.


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    Kevin F. Kiley
    Feb 06, 2021

    Promotion in the French army was usually within the regiment in order to maintain unit cohesion. And it was also usually within the same arm of service. Very seldom would a cuirassier officer be promoted into a chasseur a cheval regiment.


    There were established rules of both seniority and length of service, although there were extraordinary promotions for valor and certain emergencies, such as Carnot's promotion from chef de bataillon to general officer to meet the his new assignment in 1814.


    There were also field promotions and deserving enlisted men were promoted to sous-lieutenant by election, although these required 'permission' of the Ministry of War. There was also promotion by acclamation, a practice Napoleon participated in.


    From 1805 the standards were serving four years in grade before promotion for officers, and enlisted men six to eight years, four as an NCO, before promotion to sous-lieutenant.


    Staff officers were required to serve two years in grade with troops before being promoted.


    This information can be found on page 168 of John Elting's Swords Around a Throne. Supporting information can be found in Elzear Blaze's memoirs, Coignet's memoirs, Jean Morvan's Le Soldat Imperial, Noel's Souvenirs, and Lejeune's memoirs.


    Regarding infantry regiments, the change in organization of the infantry battalion in 1808 led to larger infantry regiments, and the battalions of the same regiment might not always serve together. When that did happen, the detachment of battalions could confuse and disrupt the administration of the regiment, and Napoleon sometimes did this in order to form provisional regiments in other theaters.


    The depot battalions of the new regimental organization consisted of four companies as they had no elite companies. The 1st and 3d companies of the depot battalions 'were de marche units' which 'ferried' recruits to the field battalions of the regiment. the 2d company was used for 'local guard and security missions' at the depot and the 4th company processed and trained recruits. See page 214 of John Elting's Swords.

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    Rory Muir
    Feb 08, 2021
    Replying to

    Thanks Kevin - that's very helpful

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    22 comments
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