Jacques-Antoine-Hippolyte de Guibert
====================================
[Wikipedia Entry](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques-Antoine-Hippolyte_de_Guibert)
_Essai général de tactique, précédé d'un discours sur l'état actuel de la politique et de la science militaire en Europe : avec le plan d'un ouvrage intitulé : La France politique et militaire_, Londres, Les Libraires Associés, 1770, 1772.
[Tome 1 - Gallica](https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5408326q)
[Tome 2 - Google - 1772](https://books.google.com/books?id=2aoWAAAAQAAJ)
[Tome 2 - Google - 1775](https://books.google.com/books?id=URBkAAAAcAAJ)
_Défense du système de guerre moderne, ou réfutation complète du système de Monsieur Mesnil-Durand_
[Tome 1 - Google](https://books.google.com/books?id=NawWAAAAQAAJ)
[Tome 2 - Google](https://books.google.com/books?id=m6oWAAAAQAAJ)
_Le soldat citoyen, ou Vues patriotiques sur la manière la plus avantageuse de pourvoir à la défense du royaume_ avec Joseph, Servan, 1780.
[Gallica](https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k86567q)
Published posthumously by his wife: Louise-Alexandrine de Guibert
[Wikipedia Entry](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise-Alexandrine_de_Guibert)
_Œuvres militaires de Guibert : publiées par sa veuve sur les manuscrits et d'après les corrections de l'auteur_, t. 1 sur 5, Paris, Magimel, 1803
[Tome 1 - Gallica](https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k56967629)
[Tome 2 - Gallica](https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k56961160)
[Tome 3 - Gallica](https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5601828k)
[Tome 4 - Gallica](https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5690642b)
Ironic that for all the hype surrounding Guibert, it was the Meusnil-Durand approach that won out in the end, having been employed right in the first battle of the Wars at Jemappes.
While I agree the Guibert is much over hyped due to his self promotion by using courtesans and being present in political Salons, I cannot see a Mesnil- Durand approach for the battle.
Krieg gegen die Französische Revolution 1792 - 1797, 2. Band, Feldzug 1792, Wien 1905
Die Art, wie GL. Dumouriez vom 3. bis 5. November den Angriff gegen die zwischen Jemappes and Hyon in befestigter Stellung stehenden Österreicher einleitete, scheint im Österreichischen Hauptquartier überrascht zu haben.(2 - footnote : Generalquartiermeister Lindenau schreibt darüber : Seine (Dumouriez) Art, gegen uns vorzugehen, war ganz neu und einer Belagerung fast ähnlich, K.A., F.A. 1792, XIII,22)
p.241
De la Jonquière cites hin his work about the battle of Jemappes a battle report by Dampiere, p. 165 where his "colonne centale" when they came under heavy artillery fire they were ordered to deploy into line, which they did, this is rather a Guibert approach and in line with the 1791 regulations.
I checked Mesnil - Durands two volumes about tactics, but cannot see that Jemappes was performed using his ideas, what make you coming to that conclusion?
As you know the French even employed siege guns in this battle.
I wrote an article in First Empire in the late 90s and it was an eye-opener for me. I based it on Krieg 1792 and Lynn. The French initially bombarded the Austrian position with some very heavy guns and launched an infantry attack. The attack columns used the 1791 regs, but only the regular Royal battalions managed to deploy - the volunteer battalions broke up under fire. At the same time, the French were attacking the Austrian wings in classic 18th century style drawing the Austrian troops from the centre. The main central assault fell back and was formed into a Meusnil-Durand heavy column called the ‘bataillon de Mons’. This was launched at the weak Austrian centre and smashed through. French extremists hailed the victory as showing the French would win if they advanced.
Waterloo is only up the road from Jemappes but the parallels are interesting. Wagram is further away, but MacDonald’s square is based on the same principle.
Sorry Dave, I cannot find this monster column you mention, I checked also Lynn, he expresses
I cannot see at all, in contrast to you - a line of development of smashing columns from Jemappes to Wagram not to Belle Alliance.
Mesnil (and not Meusnil) - Durand, where does he advocate such monster columns?
Maybe you confuse him with Folard, or maybe I am confusing him with Folard.
As for the battalions deploying, Dampierre also mentions three battalions from Paris, so not only les blancs but also les bleues did it.
It happens after the Guibert/1791 regs assault columns are repulsed. Then the column is formed up to smash through, such as from p.152 https://books.google.com/books/about/The_life_and_times_of_Louis_Philippe_ex.html?id=PywEAAAAQAAJ albeit written at the end of the reign of the duc de Chartres.
Thanks Dave for the link, so out of those 5 routed battalions then this Big battalion of 5 rallied units is made, the colours are placed in the middle and Cavalry gives the signal for attack - this so called Mons column brakes through? I have difficulties to believe this tale, there I don't find it in any other studies of the battle.
Good Day David,
"a Mesnil-Durand heavy column" (...) "MacDonald’s square is based on the same principle" ...`
Mc Donald formation at Wagram was a Colonne Vuide, the principle being that his *great body of troops* was conforming with the principles of a *small body of troops* - ie not directed with a regulating bataillon.
an attack column being only a column formed on the center,
see page 163 from GUIBERT, for a sample of the notion of that *manoeuvre de principe". i think it is more related to a (great) body of troops than to the straight idea of a *column* per se (minor tactics).
that body of troops can be anything from regiment up to a Division.
books.google.fr/books?id=ujXgEKiWARIC&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=%22manœuvres+de+principe%22+%2B+guibert&source=bl&ots=M8WwTWZfDN&sig=ACfU3U00rwWZHsfl-Pos2QzYXAILLTDPqw&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCoeWn4JnqAhVPyhoKHQVhCaIQ6AEwAHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22manœuvres%20de%20principe%22%20%2B%20guibert&f=false
Here's some plans for the battle of Jemapes, there is no "monster column"
it *seems* the French are in "Colonne par Bataillons" (peloton frontage)
according of course to the tacticography of those battle maps.
I hope that helps,
Best Regards
I was really talking about the underlying principle -MacDonald’s formation was sent forward to smash through the seam between III Korps and the Grenadiers after a heavy bombardment from the Grande Battery, just as d’Erlon and the Guard attempted at Waterloo. At Jemappes, the first assault was made in attack columns after the opening bombardment, but these were repulsed and the bataillon de Mons was assembled, albeit looser in formations. Meusnil-Durand as I understand it advocated this approach to getting troops across the ground as opposed to the assault columns of the 1791 regs.
Good Day David,
i'm unclear on your last message, are you talking about the "underlying principle" (already answered) or are you talking about a single bataillon aka the "the bataillon de Mons" and the way that single Bn was formed with relation to the type of column effectively used on the ground, as noted with your comment about "Mesnil-Durand (..) advocated this approach" ... ?
the two terms "Assault + columns" do not ring anything clear as far i understand the french system for the period. You have hereafter a listing of the French Columns from Bardin's Dictionary.
Colonne d' attaque is a column formed on the center divisions.
see Bardin, Part n° V > page 1391 for colonne par bataillon with a specific comment on Jemmapes Battle :
"— Cependant I'INFANTERIE FRANÇAISE combattait, à JEMMAPES, en Colonne par bataillon."
Eventually "Colonne par bataillon" (without a S at the end) is a larger category of column, which encompass different sub types
"colonne par Bataillons" (with a S at the end)
Colonne par regiment
Colonne par demi- Bataillon
colonne d' attaque par bataillons
i suspect all that stuff is about the opposing idea of a column related to minor tactics, and the idea of column used to describe a great body of troops and the underlying principles about command and direction of troops. Quite complicated for sure. semantics matter on those elements.
i hope it is interesting !
Best Regards, Eric. 😉
Good day David,
The initial attack was executed with central columns with no (zero) intent to use line formation at the end. the decision to deploy in line was the result of the heavy artillery fire - causing too much losses (see COLIN hereafter.page 9 and footnote 2)
"Il ne s’agissait pas tant d’inventer de nouvelles formations et de nouvelles manœuvres que de donner des principes solides, des procédés pratiques pour assurer la cohésion des rangs, le maintien des distances et des directions, l’alignement des grandes unités, ainsi que pour régler la bonne exécution des mouvements élémentaires en lesquels se réduisent toutes les évolutions (...) A mesure que les habitudes se sont prises, que des traditions se sont formées, on a pu et dû abréger ces indications ; mais c’était alors l’essentiel et c’est grâce à elles que bataillons de ligne et de volontaires ont, à Jemmapes, manœuvré sous le feu avec une rare perfection2.
2 « Nous marchâmes en colonne centrale jusqu’à un quart de portée du canon. Alors, comme nous perdions du monde, les généraux Dumouriez et Beurnonville m’ordonnèrent de faire déployer les colonnes. J’avoue qu’il est impossible de mieux exécuter un mouvement aussi compliqué, et sous le feu très vif et très rapproché de 40 bouches à feu. Le mouvement se fit comme à une manœuvre de paix. » (Rapport de Dampierre, ap. La Jonquière, La bataille de Jemappes, p. 165.) see COLIN tactique ... page 9"
---
the new attack was done with that "grosse colonne" : named "bataillon de Mons" in your book, but also named "bataillon de Jemmapes" in others books like in Thiers.
so if we are looking for the "underlying principles", that big colonne can be simply a "bataillon carré" (see Bardin page 675) which is a simple sub divisionnary column with the purpose to eventually defend on all side, and which predates to middle age or so !
that correspond to what you are looking : Duc de Chartres was not going to "invent" a new type of monster column in the heat of combat or on the spot, and surely relied on the concept of Bataillon carré to renew the assault and be (more) ready in case of an attack by enemy cavalry (which was nearby and already done damage to other french units).
It's some kind of moving redoubt, a very old and well known "manoeuvre de principe" like noted in Guibert. you have a further distinction between BATAILLONS CARRÉS D' HOMMES (Duc de Chartes at Jemmapes) and BATAILLONS CARRÉS DE TERRAIN (Mc Donald at Wagram). both used strong principles suited to the tactical situation.
i hope this helps,
Best Regards, Eric
Even LYNN is referencing the "Bataillon Carré" as one of the four principal tactical formations - according to him and his own list- used by the French Army (namely > I-Line, II-Colonne d' attaque, III-Bataillon carré, IV-Tirailleurs) and his own comment is that bataillon carré is similar to a "closed column".
he goes further in saying that there are two kinds : (a) one with severals battalions and the other (b) with only one battalion.
saying so, he do not establish a link between (a) type and the monster column of Duc de Chartes ! see pages 551 & 552 ... perhaps that monster column is of course only a secondary detail in his overall study. link to Lynn free article on JSTOR :
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41913942?read-now=1&seq=13#metadata_info_tab_contents
Sorry, I meant Attack columns, not assault columns. I was under the impression from Lynn that the first French assault columns intended to deploy at musketry range, when in fact, they were battalion columns deployed to reduce the casualties. Accounts seem to vary on the question of whether they got into difficulties trying to deploy or after they had done so, but then they have fallen back and Chartres created this column de Mons or Jemappes out of the remains of five battalions.
The difficulty comes as is so often the case with the word “column” and what the actual formation was. It is not helped by the impressions of secondary authors in between. It is then the French entire smashing through the weakened Austrian tree and breaking the Austrian army, followed by the march to Brussels that was emphasised in the propaganda and the extremists’ claim that the French should always advance, followed by King Louis’ execution.
Paddy Griffiths goes so far as to suggest that the five attack columns were “expanded” by the propaganda into much larger columns advancing with revolutionary ardour through the Austrian lines. The attack columns just get into difficulty and there is confused fighting for several hours until numbers prevail https://books.google.com/books/about/French_Napoleonic_Infantry_Tactics_1792.html?id=FKjvCwAAQBAJ
Indeed
Thanks Eric - very interesting and confirming what I read all about. Did you check Mesnil - Durand though about those huge brake through columns? I cannot find it in his two volume book about tactics.
As also the Austrian officers observed, Jemappes was quite peculiar, it resembled more a siege than a usual field battle - and that is what I take it for.
La bataille de Jemmapes / par C. de La Jonquière
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k8755567
I found in my files an projected article or indeed written one with some interesting observations, google translator should help - interesting to note that Dumouriez calls his armies also Grande Armée.
Good day Hans Karl,
thank you for sharing your article.
"Mesnil - Durand (..) huge brake through columns? "
No, not yet, at least not specifically for M.D. What i have done is to check once again the various columns, to establish a sort of general classification.
With more free time this Saturday morning, i have looked at another possibility for Duc de Chartes column > namely a "colonne compacte", i have found another ref. in COLIN comparing the "Jemappes bataillon" to the also "monster" one used by the British at Fontenoy : "le général Égalité n’avait pu rassembler qu’une colonne informe, comme celle de Fontenoy, pour reprendre l’attaque" (page 52). This one (Fontenoy) is clearly identified as a Colonne Compacte in Bardin. We end up with something quite similar to Mc Donald at Wagram.
Why COLIN is using the term *informe* (informal ?) to describe it ?
in French or in English, that term encompass several subtle meanings and nuances when it comes to make a comment on that specific column. both very interesting and also quite disheartening !
Joke appart, i believe there is quite a difference of intent and tactical context between Fontenoy, Jemappes, Wagram and Waterloo.
the common idea is that those strange columns seems monsters and coming out of nowhere. i don't think it is the case. some of them like Mc Donald are not strange at all and refer to what i called "manoeuvre de principe" with the ref. to Guibert's own words. ie a commander decision perfectly suited to the situation and context, coming from global knowledge on art of war.
that said, we are still trying to guess what is the most plausible qualification for Duc de Chartes specific column for the second attack.
i think i have given the relevant possibilities. The real enigma for me is to get the list of the "principles" that were eventually used on the field, when needed, and implemented as an "informal" (specific definition) formation towards the current regs. (not meaning that the formation used had no "lineage" or "ancestor"). ie the "Colonne Compacte" is simply an ancestor of the colonne d' attaque for example.
as usual, i just feel like facing a black-deep-abyss, where you need to check almost each word in order to get a correct understanding.
even colonne centrale could mean different things.
Ps > the messages are appearing in a disordered order > got the same thing yesterday and previous day. I answer something just to discover H + 24 others earlier messages from David. Bizarre !
😁
Yes, the forum is not that discussion friendly - the recent contributors apart - high quality stuff.
I don't even know who wrote this article, maybe Oliver Schmidt. I had once quite an interest in this battle (along with Valmy).
I agree with you that it is often misrepresented - it was more versatile - as most of Revolutionary battles were.
COLONNE COMPACTE. (H)
Sorte de COLONNE TACTIQUE d'un usage fort ancien et qui a suggéré aux tacticiens l'idée de notre COLONNE D'ATTAQUE.
— Le COIN de la MILICE GRECQUE était une Colonne compacte; quelques-uns du moins le croient, mais ce n'est pas une vérité démontrée.
— Quand I'INFANTERIE de TURENNE était sur dix à douze RANGS de PROFONDEUR , le rapprochement des BATAILLONS de la PREMIÈRE à la SECONDE LIGNE , donnait à l'instant des Colonnes compactes.
— La fameuse Colonne de FONTENOY que les ANGLAIS formèrent sans le vouloir, parce qu'ils s'encombrèrent sur un terrain mal reconnu, était une Colonne compacte.
—Depuis L' AMINCISSEMENT constitutif, le souvenir des Colonnes des anciens suggéra à FOLARD l'idée de la sienne ; celle qu'il inventa différait de nos Colonnes actuelles en ce qu'elle n'était pas MÉSOPLÉSIONNAIRE, c'est-à-dire qu'elle ne se formait pas sur le CENTRE comme, nos COLONNES D'ATTAQUE actuelles; il voulait qu'elle fût d'un à six BATAILLONS ordonnés sur vingt ou trente FILES, ayant trois SECTIONS sans INTERVALLES et une PROFONDEUR de dix-huit RANGS.-
—C'était une MASSE lourde, gauchement imaginée et peu digne de la réputation qu'elle a eue, ou du bruit qu'elle a fait, FOLARD l'organisait par une SUITE DE DOUBLEMENT DE FILES; ce qui désajustait toute l'économie des BATAILLONS, troublait les RANGS, mélangeait les soldats et composait un tout sans accord ni simultanéité. Ce projet, qui parut en un temps où l'ignorance était telle, que les OFFICIERS et les BAS OFFICIERS pas encore de PLACE fixe dans L'ORDRE DE BATAILLE, Ce projet, débattu jusqu'à satiété par tous les AUTEURS militaires, consistait à agglomérer des SUBDIVISIONS composées presque d'autant de RANGS que de FILES, et à les encadrer d'hommes pourvus d'ARMEs DE LONGUEUR; c'était une imitation malhabile de la PHALANGE GRECQUE; une suite de petits CARRÉS PLEINS, ayant leurs DRAPEAUX au centre, leurs fusiliers emprisonnés et paralysés, les OFFICIERS et les BAS OFFICIERS sans place déterminée et réduits à se caser où ils le pourraient ; telle est la platitude qui a enflammé la polémique militaire pendant un demi-siècle.
---
---
COLONNE D' ATTAQUE
COLONNE D' ATTAQUE PAR BATAILLONS
COLONNE JUMELLE
COLONNE DOUBLE
COLONNE PAR LE CENTRE
COLONNE CENTRALE
COLONNE TRANCHEE
CARRE TACTIQUE
BATAILLON CARRE
COLONNE SERREE
COLONNE SERREE EN MASSE
MASSE TACTIQUE
COLONNE DE BATAILLONS
COLONNE PAR BATAILLON
COLONNE PAR DEMI-BATAILLON
---
COLONNE EPAGOGIQUE
COLONNE STRATEUMATIQUE > COLONNE COMBINÉE - COLONNE MOBILE
COLONNE MESOPLESIONAIRE
COLONNE TACTIQUE > COLONNE COMPACTE - COLONNE EPAGOGIQUE
---
Chuquet only talks about “une grosse colonne” and the bataillon de Mons. https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k63655604.texteImage
Indeed, did you compare his description p.93 with those of the The life and times of Louis Philippe, ex-king of the French p. 153?
Almost two different stories in one this "battalion" gets 5 colours in its center and the cavalry trumpets sound the charge, while in the other the duke of Chratres provides this battalion of rallied fugitives - officers and one colour and one cannon.
The of course the stories of those old battle cries of the old regiments.
In my opinion, the whole story maybe true that units were rallied and fed back into the fight, but the rest is highly political coloured, it just had to be a column, how otherwise could a Revolutionary army gain victory, I am a skeptic of that approach.
Just checked the Österreichische Militärische Zeitschrift 1811 - 1813, reprint of 1834 - erster Band, zweiter Theil - there is an extensive chapter of the early wars of the Revolution, Jemappes included, couldn't find anything about the bataillon de Mons.
In case - as usual with google scans - maps are folded, Hathi seemingly has better quality scans but full download not available for non zoners.
Hans,
Bayerische Staatsbibliothek has many issues of OMZ online and for download. They are higher quality than Google, but the maps are still folded.
BsB Versions
[1811-1849](https://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/title/BV021242173)
[1860-1870](https://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/title/BV010213681)[also?](https://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/title/BV041543032)
[1870-1906](https://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/title/BV006676574)
Regards, Terry
David, thank you for the link to Chuquet.
I agree with HK, his description (page 95) gives the impression of a smaller body of than the others descriptions of the second action previously mentioned here. one body of troops, called "bataillon de Mons/Jemappes" is organized by Duc de Chartes, and the others nearby Bns are following the energy of that renewed assault lead by the Duc.
"Mais le jeune duc de Chartres est peut-être celui qui montre le plus de présence d'esprit et de courage. Il rallie les soldats qui sortaient du bois de Flénu et tous ceux qui s'écartent sous prétexte de chercher leur bataillon. Il les forme en une grosse colonne qu'il nomme gaiement le bataillon de Mons.
Il donne à ce bataillon une piece de canon; il lui donne des officiers et un commandant; il lui donne un drapeau, le premier qu'il rencontre, et toutes les fois qu'un homme se présente et demande son bataillon « votre bataillon, dit-il, le voilà, marchez ». Enfin, il fait battre la charge et, sous la mitraille, s'élance avec son bataillon de Mons vers les redoutes."
Revue d'histoire rédigée à l'État-major de l'armée
has also a description of the action, see page 273-274
the battaillon de Jemappes is decribed as a colonne mélangée
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1217296?rk=42918;4
something like a colonne par bataillons with reduced distances
and perhaps uneven pelotons,
This is seemingly la Jonquière - often parts or full books ran in a series of articles in this worthwhile Journal, you will find "le bataillon de Jemappes" on page 161 in his book.
yes, you are absolutely right, too many similar accounts over different books in three days ! with minor variations or details added.
anyway, McDonald & D' Erlon acted their formation *before* the start of action, and for Wagram was very understandable given the situation and mission. Won't comment on l' attaque du 1er Corps Here .. : )
For Duke of Chatres, the formation was acted *during* the action as a secondary and expedite solution. not something premeditated from the start. a compact mass of troops, rallied and amalgamated, in order to push forward again, taking into account the nearby cavalry threat. a bataillon carré or colonne comptacte, with non equalized pelotons (?), so Colin's comment about an informal column, which has also several possible meanings in French, and make sense in the context.
if not the battailon of Jemappes would have been described as an informal skirmishers strong mob.
a difference in nature and timing when considering 1809 and 1815.
for a Hi-Res map >
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84931974/f1.item.zoom
General Egalité at the critical moment ! there is even one flag !
`
Thanks for the Gallica link, looks almost like Tercios of the 30YW