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    Zack White
    Mar 22, 2021

    France's greatest naval success

    in General Discussions

    This week's big question: What was France's greatest naval success of the period? And of course, why?


    A few contenders have been suggested on twitter, including Chesapeake. Any thoughts folks?

    18 comments
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    18 Comments

    Share Your ThoughtsSign up to leave a comment.

    Kevin F. Kiley
    Mar 25, 2021

    I'm glad you brought it up. It gave me an opportunity to research some naval material on the period. And as I'm rereading the Bolitho series, it makes it entirely relevant.

    Like

    Kevin F. Kiley
    Mar 25, 2021

    A good, not great, reference for the action is on pages 211-216 of EH Jenkins' A History of the French Navy. On page 211 it reads 'Villaret's instructions were to avoid a battle unless it were necessary to save the convoy...' As he accomplished that, the French strategic objective was achieved.


    Whether or not the entire country was fed by the convoy is irrelevant. Paris was 'resupplied' and that kept that volatile city calm and at least semi-loyal. At that time, that was enough. The French revolutionary governments were unstable and subject to being overthrown. Governmental stability did not 'appear' until after the Brumaire coup and a competent head of state.

    Like
    tomholmberg
    Mar 26, 2021
    Replying to

    @Andrew Bamford "The paper that I linked to above argues that although it helped keep Paris fed the Robespierre regime still fell (but then again, as you say, French Revolutionary governments had a habit of falling anyway), so for me the jury's still out on that one."


    Of course, Robespierre wasn't the Revolution (Napoleon was 😁). To say one thing "saved the Revolution" is silly, but feeding Paris was a primary problem (see the armées révolutionnaires). So had the RN stopped the convoy, there would have been more unrest, the effect of which we can't know-could even have made things more radical.

    Like

    Andrew Bamford
    Mar 26, 2021
    Replying to

    @tomholmberg Point taken, although if it was the Robespierre regime that organised the supply convoy (was it? one wonders how long it took to set something like that up?) then in that specific sense it was a failure for their particular brand of Jacobinism since the extra food didn't prevent their fall even if the Revolutionary government, or at least the Republic, continued for a few more years.

    Like

    tomholmberg
    Mar 26, 2021
    Replying to

    @Andrew Bamford "Le combat doit être resitué dans son contexte lié aux réseaux atlantiques au XVIIIe siècle. Tout commence avec un convoi chargé de sucre et de café qui quitte Saint-Domingue le 20 juin 1793, au moment de l’incendie du Cap-Français, lorsque les commissaires de la Convention Polverel et Sonthonax reprennent la ville des mains du gouverneur Galbaud, favorable aux colons. Arrivés aux États-Unis, les navires sont chargés de farine pour éviter la disette qui menace en France. La jeune République espère d’ailleurs toute l’aide que les États-Unis pourront apporter, en raison de l’alliance entre les deux pays datant de 1778."



    bcd.bzh
    La bataille de Prairial, 1er juin 1794 : une autre « bataille de l’Atlantique »
    La bataille de Prairial est un affrontement naval entre la France républicaine et l’Angleterre qui a eu lieu le 1er juin 1794, ou 13 prairial an II. Du fait de sa localisation en plein océan Atlantique, la bataille n’est pas nommée en référence à un point terrestre, comme Trafalgar.Le combat doit être resitué dans son contexte lié aux réseaux atlantiques au XVIIIe siècle.

    June 1793 would have been during the first Committee of Public Safety, so no Robespierre, and likely the planning was even earlier, possibly before the CPS was formed.

    Like

    Andrew Bamford
    Mar 22, 2021

    What about the 1794 Atlantic campaign? We Brits focus on the Glorious First of June, but tend to gloss over the fact that the French got their convoy safely home. Question then is whether said convoy did indeed save the Revolution from starvation?

    Like
    D
    david Tomlinson
    Mar 25, 2021
    Replying to

    A bushel of wheat weighs about 60lb and yields about 42 loaves. To give everyone in France, say, a daily ration of half a loaf that would be 334,524 bushels a day, or approximately 63,700 tonnes per week. Anyone know how many ships we are talking about and their capacity?

    Like

    Andrew Bamford
    Mar 25, 2021
    Replying to

    @david Tomlinson Online sources tend to agree on 117 ships, capacity unspecified. While searching for that, I found this which is rather interesting: https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol05/tnm_5_1_45-51.pdf Apparently not so much a case of saving France from starvation as saving Paris from starvation.

    Like

    D
    david Tomlinson
    Mar 25, 2021
    Replying to

    If we take an average of 1,000 tonnes, that means less than a fortnight’s provisions for the nation. That also assumes all this was grain and going to bread production and not other uses. So saving Paris seems possible, the remainder of France less so.

    Like

    G
    Geraint Thatcher
    Mar 22, 2021

    Battle of the Capes and Battle of Cape Henry before that

    Like

    Kevin F. Kiley
    Mar 22, 2021

    -The repulse of Nelson's attack on the Boulogne Flotilla on the night of 15-16 August 1801. This bloody repulse was not the only one inflicted on the Royal Navy by French Admiral Latouche-Treville.


    -From 21 February to 21 March 1805 Admiral Missiessy conducts a successful naval campaign in the Caribbean, raiding the islands of Dominica, Nieves, Montserrat, and St Christopher, and resupplied French forces on Guadaloupe, Martinique, and Santo Domingo before successfully returning to France by 30 March.


    -Capture of the island redoubt of Le Diamant, off Martinique, on 25 June 1805.


    -The defeat and destruction of a British squadron of 4 frigates at the Battle of Grand Port at Ile-de-France on 23 August 1810.

    Like

    tomholmberg
    Mar 22, 2021

    Transferring Napoleon's army safely to first Malta and then Egypt.

    Like
    H
    Hans - Karl Weiß
    Mar 22, 2021
    Replying to

    Excellent choice, indeed amazing

    Like
    18 comments
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